How Can You Justify Being A Catholic If You Have Children?

Wow, Luke you support my Socialist agenda of wealth redistribution as it pertains to the Catholic Church.

I knew you had some commie pinko liberal blood in ya'!

I really should consult an attorney about suing the Church for NOT molesting me, don't you think?

I welcome any legal advice from those posting on Luke's article.

Systematic seems a bit strong, but to some degree I concur.

My father, in casual conversation, refers to priests as "The Bu^^fuc%ers."

I am glad I have finally found the one thing you are incapable of joking about.

I will chalk this up as a small victory, and seek legal counsel elsewhere.

I think "refuge" would be a better word to describe it.

"Systematic" is correct. Its not just one pedophile priest getting away with abusing children. There has been a systematic approach within the church as far as dealing with these priests once their behavior is discovered. Their superiors become aware of the problems but don't take effective measures to make sure it doesn't happen again, and they even use coercion to keep the victims from filing criminal charges or even talking about it at all. Instead of real therapy, they give their own version of counseling, which includes more of their dogma and is encouragement to protect the offending priests. When it gets to the point that church superiors cannot ignore the problem or brush it aside, they simply move the offending priest to another parish, again without any effective measure to ensure it doesn't happen again. Then the awful cycle starts over again.

This is absolutely systematic. And, as we've seen, it goes all the way to the top.

If you are willingly taking your children into a place where they have a high likelyhood of being abused, especially if they are boys, then you ARE supporting this!

High probability? What do you consider high? 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, 50%?

How many Catholic priests are there in the US Luke?

How many have there been since this country's inception?

Now how many of them molested children?

What percentage of the total molested children?

I'll give you a hint, it is less then 5% in the last 50 years. Higher then it should be (0%), but no where near the "high likelyhood" that you state.

Does this 5% show a higher likelyhood of priests being child molesters vs the general public?

If you are willingly taking your children into a place where they have a high likelyhood of being abused, especially if they are boys, then you ARE supporting this!

I don't have kids, and I am not Catholic, so it has no direct bearing upon me.

However with that first statement well we might as well not send kids to day care or let uncles, grandparents, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, family friends all be around kids.

And excuse me do not say my Pope. I am not Catholic and he is certainly not my Pope.

Pedophiles and child molesters are everywhere again I am NOT condoning the church at all. If you expose your child to any adult you have no way of knowing whether or not they have a record of child sexual abuse.

Yeah the church shouldn't have covered it up, however no again just because someone still goes to Catholic church does NOT mean they support this. It might be best not to issue such a strong accusation. You are basically saying all Catholics should give up being Catholic and never go to church again or else they condone and support this behavior.

Like I said, a broad accusation.

And yes I firmly and fully support criminal charges brought against those did that engage in this activity, and certainly I would want the Pope removed from position.

Does this 5% show a higher likelyhood of priests being child molesters vs the general public?

Nice minimization but several major differences.

1) You should be able to trust a priest.

2) This abuse was an organized crime.

3) The Church actively covered it up.

4) The Church reassigned these predators to where they could repeat the crimes.

I could go on and on...

Are you saying that if you knew there was a 5% chance that your child would be molested by your priest that you would take that chance???

That is like saying "If you knew that there was a 5% chance that you would get into an accident with your child in the car, would you take that chance?"

There are currently over 400,000 Catholic priests world wide, of those 65% are assigned to a parish (church), the rest are in monasteries.

There are currently around 46,000 Catholic priests in the US. There are approximately 300 child molestation cases filed or around .7%.

There are 2 Catholic churches in the city I live in, a total of 3 Catholic priests. So 3 out of 46,000 have a possibility of coming in contact with my children (if I were to go to Catholic church) which is .00652% of the total population of priests in the US. That means there is a 0.00033% chance of my child being molested by a Catholic priest, so yes, I would take those odds.

Nice minimization but several major differences.

1) You should be able to trust a priest.

2) This abuse was an organized crime.

3) The Church actively covered it up.

4) The Church reassigned these predators to where they could repeat the crimes.

I could go on and on...

1) You should be able to trust an uncle/sibling/cousin/parent/grandparent as well and I would bet that more child molestation cases are perpetrated by those I mention vs a Catholic priest.
2) Organized in what way?

Organized crime or criminal organizations is a transnational grouping of highly centralized enterprises run by criminals for the purpose of engaging in illegal activity, most commonly for the purpose of generating a monetary profit.

Besides being a crime, and a the church a transnational organization, the definition of organized crime doesn't fit in this case because:
1) It is not run by criminals
2) It is not run for the purpose of engaging in illegal activity
3) It is not run for the purpose of generating a monetary profit.

3) & 4) These are true, there is no defense for this.

I'm not "basically saying it", I'm saying it! Change denominations, stay Catholic and go to a protestant church if you are married to the Vatican,

Do you have any sort of proof that this sort of thing isn't (or didn't) happen in the Protestant church, or any other denomination for that matter?

Luke, Every parents exposes their child to the risk of being molested every time they walk away and leave them with anyone besides themselves. That includes daycare and school. Are we going to declare all parents child abusers for knowingly putting their children at risk?

I'm not Catholic but I have taken a child with me into a Catholic church before. She was never in any way at risk. When I attend church (Baptist) my daughter is always with me or well within my eyesight.

I really wish the higher-up's responsible for the cover ups would be brought to justice and think it is horrible that they have been able to hide from the law on this. Let's not go overboard and call all parents of the Catholic faith child abusers.

A question for those who criticize Catholics who stand by their faith and do not leave the church.....do you criticize Mexicans for bailing out on their home country iso trying to fix it?

Do you see story after story after story after story about other denomintaions in the news EVERY single day? Noooooo...

Do you see story after story after story after story about Catholic priests in the news EVERY single day? That is a Nooooooo... as well.

You may see the same story told over and over and over for weeks straight, but not even close to multiple stories daily. Again, I state that you would see more (percentage of total population based) stories from relatives then from priests if the news agencies would tell them, but because these people are Catholic priests, they are more news worthy then the everyman who's impregnating his 12 year old step-daughter, or the grandparent who is fondling their grandchildren, just like they did their children at that age.

One of my wife's best friends was molested by her father growing up and never said anything about it, once she had kids, her kids were molested by the same man (their grandfather). Is he somehow less evil then this Fr. Murphy from Wisconsin? Is she any less at fault then the people who moved Fr Murphy to a different parish but didn't discipline him? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO!

Is this a bad thing? Yes, of course it is, but it is being blown extremely out of proportion by the media for the sake of "selling ads".

MJV---rock on. Luke---why not tell parents not to send their kids to school because they might get abused....or never let their kids go to the mall or anywhere else where they may come into contact with a pedophile? Why not be like me and skip parenthood all together so you never have to worry that your kid might get abused?? Answer me that. Thanks.

You can use all kinds of statistics to say the risk is minimal. But one single priest managed to sexually abuse more than 200 children. Another claimed to have abused at least 1 child every couple weeks for 25 years.

Say what you will about generalized statistics. In some churches the risk of being abused is 0%, because the priests there are not child molesters. But in some churches the risk of being abused is much higher.

Luke Wright--

You are just really sticking your foot in it, sorry.

There how about this for you. Make your kids walk around in a suit of armor, with a zap line all around them so any adult or teenager that comes in any distance to them they can zap the hell out of them.

By the way here is the Sex Offender Registry for the US. Ensure you do NOT live anywhere near any of these places at all.

What state do you live in by the way? You will find your state listed. Put in your city or zip code and that will list all the offenders in your area. The red squares are the pedophiles and child molesters.

You can hate the pedophile priests I will not even come close to disagreeing with you there, but you are incredibly wrong if you think Catholics are the only pedophiles.

I'm not "basically saying it", I'm saying it! Change denominations, stay Catholic and go to a protestant church if you are married to the Vatican, but PLEASE, don't expose your children to Catholic priests who are free to sexually abuse them at their whim becuase they know that they will just get transferred to another hunting ground if they are found out!

Then you had better keep your child locked up in their bedroom until they are adults as how much you want to bet the person you walk by in the street may or may not be a pedophile. I can guarantee you anything you pass pedophiles all the time in the street.

Luke Wright--

Again you MISS THE POINT!!! Sheesh.

Again you MISS THE POINT!!! Sheesh.

Exactly! The point is that there are child molesters everywhere. And beyond that, the only point I think that you are making is one of intolerance. Yes, these awful events happen, but it happens in everywhere, every day.

I was raised in two different faiths, Catholicism and Judaism and I find this whole article offensive. If you had asked what Catholics are going to do to handle this problem, that would been fine. But instead, you decided to be more controversial and ask "How can you justify being a Catholic if you have children?" Catholicism doesn't teach that it's OK to molest children, sick individuals who are taking advantage of their position do. Hey, I'm a teacher. Do you know how many teachers get convicted each year of molestation? Maybe we shouldn't send our kids to school either?

Really, I think your gripe is with being Catholic and nothing more.

Hmm, not so much, but I will keep them away from Catholic Churches and that will assure me that a molesting priest, who has been transferred from another Church for molesting kids there, isn't going to molest mine!

Luke, keep them away from the ice cream man, clowns, the boy scouts, the girl scouts, the teachers, the police, possible your great uncles, the next door neighbor who you don't know what's going on behind close doors and how about Santa at the Mall. I believe he has been known to get a rise in his levi's when the kids are on his lap.

Just to satisy my own curiosity, are you bummed because you weren't raised Catholic? Because if you are, you can convert.

luke, i will not deny my faith because 1% of the people are corrupt. priests are people and people are fallible subject to the same judgement as the rest of us. continuing my faith is not supporting child abuse. going to church does not support child abuse. if you were right then i should stop paying taxes because they go into politicians pockets and i am inadvertantly funding corporate greed and the destruction of the americann dream, its not that different from the point you make. furthermore, if a drughead recieves unemployment and spends it on drugs then i, by paying taxes, am supporting drug use and funding drug lords who make murder and thuggery an everyday occurance. according to you i should either stop paying taxes or be arrested for accessory to murder.

keep them away from the ice cream man,

NOOOOooooooo, not the ice cream man!!! No more cones? No more popsicles? OMGawd! You are a anti-ice cream biggot!!!

LOL!!! You belong on the goofy side with me.

Btw, how'd you like my Protestant rant up there in 1.25? I'm going after the Jewish religion next and then the Islamic nation. I'm sure I can find something there.

What do you know about Buddhism?...........[laughing]

if you were right then i should stop paying taxes because they go into politicians....

And we all know there is no sexual perversion in that field...........[rolling eyes]

LOL!!! You belong on the goofy side with me.

I chose to take that as a compliment, rofl.

Yeah, I saw your rant. Being someone with a dry and somewhat sarcastic sense of humor myself I was laughing my butt off. Have to admit I winced a few times as well, though. I have yet to find a way to keep the balance between sarcastic humor and being hurtful. No accusation intended there...that is a fault of my own.

Too many people out there are easily hurt by some things and not knowing what else may be going on in their lives, I don't necessarily want to add to their personal pain or stress in my attempt to be amusing. Being new to the vine and new to this whole type of interaction, I'm still grappling for that balance. I expect to fail...a lot.

Have to admit I winced a few times as well, though.

Bah! Look, if people can go around bashing a religion they don't belong to, then they have to be able to expect some of their dirty laundry to be aired. No religion is without sin. No religion is perfect. But for some reason people love bashing Catholics. What more can I say other than, "enjoy yourself". I hope they're having a nice glass of "whine" while doing it.

I expect to fail...a lot.

You'll never fail if you speak from the heart. But, make sure you have links to back yourself up. People must have proof. It makes me feel as though being on the Vine is akin to being in a banquet room full of liars who don't trust one another.

I chose to take that as a compliment, rofl.

Good. Cuz it was.

Good night mrs. r. Sweet dreams of Easter candy. Love the peeps. Remember to bite the heads off of them first. That's the law.

Agree with Rachel on this one...bigotry has no place on the vine...it isn't about free speech it is about intolerance and hate and false allegations as well as a COH violation against members here who are Catholic or have catholic family members and your attack that they are bad parents.

I guess since the vast majority of children are sexually abused in their homes by non Catholics that we should keep children away from their parents...ridiculous

I am not Catholic, but my husband is and we are raising our kids to be Catholic and never ever has there been an issue nor has anything inappropriate happened with our kids.

Luke--what you don't seem to realize is that your article is not an attack just on pedophiles (none of us like pedophiles)...it is an attack against all Catholics. This is the first time I've personally come up against such blind hatred against my church--and the timing of which during our most holy of weeks was no accident....it's been a real eye opener. You come across as a member of an extremist group that breeds hatred against Catholics such as KKK....this is not an attack on you--it's said in the hope that you will realize just how it is that you are coming off here. It ain't pretty. My church teaches us to pray for our enemies. I'll pray for you.

Luke your seed has nothing to do with pedophiles it has to do with your attack, an unwarranted one, on Catholics who are members of the church. My children nor my husband are pedophiles yet you seem to act now like all Catholics are pedophiles by claiming your attack is on pedophiles...please provide me proof that Catholic priests or even Catholics are more predisposed to pedophilia than the general population. You can't do that and your post is bigotry. It is bigotry because you have judged all people who are Catholic..not just pedophiles.

I appreciate your prayes, but I think they would be better spent on the Pope and the Vatican.

Luke--not to worry. I pray for them daily. And:

This isn't abot me, it's about millions of innocent children who are being "led to the slaughter" of sexual molestation inside Catholic Churches worldwide.

Evidence, please. Links appreciated.

Also duly noted that you've not identified here your own church nor denied your affiliation with extemist groups that preach hatred and intolerance.

Luke, this is the bigotry.....in your own words.

In my opinion any parent who would subject their child to a known danger like the priests in a Catholic Church is guilty of child abuse themselves.

You're saying every priest in the Catholic Church is a danger to every child and the parents are child abusers too.

If that isn't an assinine statement, then I don't know what is.

I like it though, when someone types what's in their mind. It shows me their level of intelligence.

please provide me proof that Catholic priests or even Catholics are more predisposed to pedophilia than the general population.

I (and others) have asked for this repeatedly, even offering him half of the equation (the numbers on Catholic Priests) and he has yet to come up with an argument anything more meaningful then "Bush Lied, People Died".

This has nothing to do with the truth, only Luke getting his rocks off bashing Catholics while professing his (alleged) Christianity.

No, what I said was...

No Luke....Read and understand your own words. I can't spell it out for you anymore than you aready did.

In my opinion any parent who would subject their child to a known danger like the priests in a Catholic Church is guilty of child abuse themselves.

You're coming back with...."What I meant to say.." Sorry but your ignorance is showing. That's not very becoming.

Take a lesson from stone soup and Dylan. They finally learned how to rephrase their comments properly to keep them from looking like Catholic bashers. That is, unless you are a Catholic basher. Then let me know what religion you are so I can do a little snooping around to see how closer to God you are than I am.

Luke considering that you are a very new father and REFUSE to tell your religion...can I assume that you don't have quite the experience to judge others who have been parents for a whole lot longer than you. You are still very young..so tell us when are you going to provide PROOF of your allegations...the pope hasn't refused to defrock anyone nor has he removed anyone..this pope has been pope for a very short time...all of the scandals broke before he was pope. Further, the thing is a trial..how can you conduct a trial or defrock somoene for something that first was never criminally charged, second no evidence of, third the man has been dead for twelve years?

lx--Luke refuses to acknowledge what good this Pope is doing to address a very dark and painful chapter in the Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html

You are Christian does not tell us anything...what sect of the Christian faith are you? That gives us the ability to see how squeeky clean your belief system is. That is only fair after all since you are smearing all Catholics.

um yes, you being a father of less than one year and judging those of us who have been parents for twenty years or more is something that brings to the fact you don't have the experience to judge that...and pedophiles might live next door to you...in fact anyone in your family is more likely to abuse your children than a priest is...yet you expose them to that family every day.

Also, there are no popes...there is one pope and he is Catholic. The leaders of other churches have done much to hide pedophilia and abuse in their ranks....Baptist churches are a prime example...though I don't think all Baptists are bad nor should they lose their children.

He stated in another post that he is a member of the "Church of God" a Pentecostal offshoot.

Here is the first thing that popped up when I searched google for "pentecostal clergy child abuse" : Link.

There are others, but you can browse for yourself.

Yeah...but the Pope didn't put them there!

The Pope doesn't assign parish priests either, but that fact doesn't fit with your rant so you will ignore it.

Well Luke, since you've decided to delete all of my comments that you don't care for.....another term for it is censorship....then I'll leave your article and take it off of my tracker.

dkaz out

The problem that must be addressed is that the Church is certain that this storm will pass if they just throw enough money to the victims.

Unfortuately, they keep surfacing and I feel that we have just seen the tip of the iceburg in regards to who knew what when.

This thing is far from over, and Catholic Leadership needs to start leading and not merely dealing with this in a reactionary way.

What is most reprehensible is the Churches response. Blame gays, blame the New York Times.

Anything to avoid blaming themselves.

This is a mess of much larger proportions than they are letting on.

And that is saying something.

This thing is far from over, and Catholic Leadership needs to start leading and not merely dealing with this in a reactionary way.

The church is leading in the same way they always have. Its time the people of the church start leading.

the difference is that the sex offenders in my neighborhood are REGISTERED and I CAN go online and find them so I can be alert to their whereabouts concerning my kids

Do you check it daily? Do you check it every time your kids go to a friends house? How about when you go on vacation, or to your in-laws house, or your parents house ... If not you are as culpable as what you accuse Catholics of being.

Parents that take their kids to Catholic Churches DO take them to the molesters home...willingly!

Luke--forgive me Lord for I'm about to sin...that is God damned bull@!$%#!!! You're saying every priest is a pedophile....shame on you. Yes, for many years pedophiles hid out as priests in Catholic churches as well as in churches of other faiths...why not ban all religion cause there may be a pedophile lurking in the clergy? The Catholic Church has been working to change the wrongs that have occurred....they believed they were handling these evil doers according to God's laws not man's...that was wrong. They acknowledge that was wrong. Things have changed. And this Pope now being persecuted has done much to help in any way that is possible undo and heal those damages and past sins. I attended Palm Sunday Mass last weekend and I prayed with tears in my eyes for my pope and for my Church. And I will do such again this Sunday Easter Sunday.

How can we know which priests are pedophiles and which are not if the church never holds them accountable for their behavior? It could be that every priest is a pedophile (yes, a stretch, I know, but totally possible), but we would never know because the church would systematically cover it up. If the church covered for the priests we know are sex offenders, how many have they covered for that we will never know about? How many people are out there who were victimized by priests that we may never know about simply because the church was effectively able to cover it up?

In all seriousness I am well aware of how much good the Catholic Church has done around the world. Once, when I was a child the Catholic Church helped my family when even the Baptist Churches would not...and we were Baptists!

They gave us money, tickets for free meals at a few restaurants and paid to have my Mothers car fixed.

I do want to add that if any Priest is accused even ONE time he should be fired and stopped from being alone with children until proven innocent...or locked up.

post #5.10-Soos, I realize you love to play newsvine cop, but what gives you the right to call Luke a pathetic individual? Is that not a violation of the COH? Since you are reporting Luke in an attempt to stifle free speech and get his article deleted, then I will report you as well for a straight out insult you made against Luke. Okay?

Oh, and I hope others see you as I do and report you as well.

One last time.

Then are you saying that the parents of the thousands of kids molested by Catholic priests knew about it and said nothing?

Did you see those words in my comment? Where did I say that? Show me, please.

What I find disturbing is that I'm telling you that you are coming off as a bigot, but that isn't what you are questioning. You are intentionally changing all words, all meaning of that one sentence, to benefit your ill-desired need to cause another flame-fest.

That is what people need to see, for themselves.

You know, at first, I was hoping someone would collapse this article. That would make my day, but instead, it should stand so others who come here, hopefully, they will see that your agenda has nothing to do with protecting the children, but to openly and unfairly attack parents of children who attend a Catholic church or school.

Soosalah, what is the way to know if a priest has been inappropriate with other children? If no charges are filed, and the church itself doesn't tell you, then how can you find out?

And if you are aware of a priest who has behaved inappropriately toward children, what then do you think is the appropriate course of action? How can you rid your church of this type of predator? And if you can't get rid of him what do you do next?

In the cases where the rape or molestation was reported to law authorities, you have to wonder how many of these "authorities" where members of the church where the priest was being accused. Is it any wonder that the claims were ignored because Father xxxxx would never do that and this punk kid was trying to destroy a "good" man, a leader in the church community.

Luke, please link PROVEN cases of sexual abuse of "thousands of kids" by priests. Note I said proven cases not alleged accusations.

You said that "registered or not, there are ways of knowing if a priest has committed crimes against children" did you not Sooslah? If that is the case then the parents of the children who were molested should have known that their priest was a pedophile, no? Then if they knew they said nothing while their own children were molested!

In your world, maybe, but not mine. Like I said, you are grasping for an emotional response, and you are soooo not going to get one from me. It's you who is trying to place blame on the wrong people. It's you trying to place blame on parents rather than the sick-minded sorry excuse for a human-being, who stole innocence away from children.

Your true colors show and I see right through you.

I bet you are one of those people who blames the woman for being raped. Maybe the victim dressed a little too provocatively, or put on a little too much make-up, or maybe she said something to encourage the guy, and when she told him he was mistaken, she deserved what she got? Is that you, Luke?

Why don't you simply admit you just hate Catholics, rather than use the victims, or blame the parents as a way to promote your hate?

Soosalah - How do your blinders fit? pretty well, you seem intent on continuing to wear them, regardless of the kind of scum you support.

"I bet you are one of those people who blames the woman for being raped."

Umm, NO, it's the RAPERS, and those who PROTECT them being called out here. YOU are the one protecting the rapers. Care to explain?

To relentless @#5.14,

I think the problem you have with me is off-topic for this thread. If you wish, write another meta article where you address your issues with me, and I will be happy to attend the lynch-mob. I am more than willing to answer any and all accusations thrown toward me. I just won't do it, here.

In reply to Fred Evil @ #5.21

Soosalah - How do your blinders fit? pretty well, you seem intent on continuing to wear them, regardless of the kind of scum you support.

Fred, you get a "wow" on that comment. I'm not sure I understand it, but if you would, please show me where I said I support the "scum" as you so eloquently put it.

Respectfully.

Waydown,

I agree with you on many points. I just hope the author, Luke, will address my questions.

I know I hold up the Inquisition as a great chapter of human history brought to us by the Catholic Church.

Religion in general has caused more harm to humankind than any natural disease or pestilence.

I love Jesus, but am scared @!$%#less of those who claim to understand his message and inflict it on their fellow men.

This country is currently engaged in a crusade, and look at all the good it has done us.

The God I choose to believe in would not condone the killing of anyone, and certainly not for the ridiculous distinction of where and how they choose to worship.

We are the problem. Humans.

And the sex abuse scandal is just another example of the abuse of power by those who claim some form of infallibility as a result of their faith.

I almost agree with you Luke.

Are you going to let your kid ride in a car? Child abuse!

Ride a roller coaster? Child abuse!

Walk down a steep hill? Child abuse!

I do believe that a Catholic parent can expose their children to their faith while precluding the possibility of abuse at the hands of a priest, or anyone else for that matter.

It is not child abuse, it is merely the risk that some form of abuse may occur, and as a parent you should know there is no way to prevent all harm from coming to your child.

Try as we might.

Are you going to let your kid ride in a car with no seatbelt?

Are you going to kid ride the roller coaster without the safety bar pulled down tight on their lap?

Will you let them run down a steep hill?

The percentage of injury or death goes up when the questions are posed in your manner, but it is not non-existant when posed in the fashion that BKGT posed them. Your argument against the Catholic church is akin to stating that there is no danger from child molestation as long as you aren't Catholic and that is just not true.

Luke:

I understand that this is the way you feel but it just isn't so.

No one is suggesting that you arrange sleepovers at the rectory for your son.

I don't leave my children with anyone that isn't family, unsupervised for a variety of reasons.

I am an over protective parent.

If I hadn't rejected the Catholic faith years ago, and was still practicing, I am confident that I could establish a relationship with some members of the clergy, wherein I felt completely comfortable letting them spiritually advise my children.

I have studied with Benedictines, Jesuits, and others and they have had a great impact on my views of the world, including what I call my faith.

I would not for one second, rewind time and deprive myself of those experiences simply as a fear response because I might have been molested.

These are isolated events, and while the church's response to them seems systematic and calculated to you, I dare say they are the exception to the rule.

I in no way condone what has been done to these children, but there is a larger picture than some sick @!$%#s buggering kids.

A huge chance?

Really.

How many practicing Catholics have reported being sexually abused by the clergy?

How many practicing Catholics are there in total over the same span of history?

I think that the chance of actually being abused is quite slim.

Probably in line with the general population.

I mean hell, one in six women will be raped in their lifetime.

It's much more dangerous to be a woman than a Catholic if sexual abuse is what you're worried about.

Would you go so far as to select the gender of your children to avoid having a daughter, since she would have such an increased chance of being abused?

Well, at least 200 boys were molested by one single priest. It would follow that if that priest were the priest of your own parish, and you are a boy, you'd have a pretty high chance of being victimized.

Instead of selecting gender of children, how about letting women be priests instead of men. Women are much less likely to sexually abuse children than men.

And its more like 1 in 3 women are raped in their lifetime. I wonder how many of them are Catholic.

It needed to be said and I said it!

Not really, sometimes people forget that there should be a filter between their brain and their mouth. To attack every person who belongs to the Catholic faith over this is wrong, no matter how it is rationalized. Your opinion is just that, your opinion.;

Each parent that brings their child into that environment knowing what they know is guilty of not only the poorest of judgement, but in my opinion also guilty of child abuse themselves by knowingly exposing their children to the danger.

In my opinion every parent who uses their child as a pawn against an ex-spouse etc is guilty of child abuse, just because I say it does it mean it is gospel? No, it means it is my opinion, some may agree with it, others won't.

Lets hope the law-makers never jump on board this band-wagon can you imagine the repercussions over finding people guilty of crimes that might happen.

Using this authors rational, I must be guilty of child abuse because I send my child to a public school everyday, knowing they risk being injured or worse.

Back up a bit Luke, I am not Catholic!!! But I don't think calling those who are child abusers is appropriate.

I know your articles are usually provocative in nature and read many of them, but I draw the line at attacking ones faith. That is the same as saying all Muslims are terrorists and guilty of terrorism over the actions of extremists within their religion.

I do not condone the actions of the guilty parties nor the ones who covered them up, they should be held accountable for their crimes.

The facts are, that our children will be in harms way many times throughout their lifetimes, the best we can do as a parent is teach them truths about people and what to be aware of, and how to protect themselves should the need ever arise. And for me...to trust that I have done my job.

But I don't think calling those who are child abusers is appropriate.

I don't believe it is appropriate to call Catholic parents child abusers over the atrocities within the church. It didn't make sense to me written the other way. sorry.

If you found out that 9-11 was an inside jod would you ever trust the government again?

Hell, Luke I am not convinced it wasn't already and don't trust the government now, so maybe I am the wrong person to ask that question! :o)

we all know that it is happening in the Catholic Church at alarming rates!

You have yet to quantify what "alarming rates" or " a high probability" means. What percentage would fit into those categories?

You have yet to quantify what the rate of child molestation is outside of the Catholic church against that of the Catholic Church.

If there is 5% of the Catholic priest population that have molested children and 8% of the population (as an example) of the United States was guilty of the same crime then it is less likely that your child would be molested by a Catholic priest, not more likely wouldn't you say?

Give facts and figures to back up your accusations, not emotion an rhetoric. I gave you half the answer already, it is your job as the author of this article to come up with the other half to back up your accusations.

Let me ask you this Proud American. If you found out that 9-11 was an inside jod [sic] would you ever trust the government again?

So if you found out that 9/11 was an inside job, would you move to a different country? Because that is what you are advocating that Catholics do.

Hey, I appreciate your input. I just think that knowingly exposing your kids to danger is abuse. It's just my opinion.

You knowingly exposed your children to danger when you allowed them to be born, what does that make you?

Bottom line, I do not agree with the church covering the guilty parties crimes, nor the Pope's position of blindness towards it. But I also do not believe it is the position of all Catholics, nor all Priests, so I have to disagree with the philosophy that says all are guilty by association.

Catholic parents are in a position to demand more of their church. If they don't, and they allow the church to continue with the status quo, then when it happens again, they are partially responsible.

Catholic parents are in a position to demand more of their church. If they don't, and they allow the church to continue with the status quo, then when it happens again, they are partially responsible.

Great comment, Janeinthiswrld, which is what this is all about. They have condoned it with their silence.

People can live in denial all they want regarding the persistent and pervasive abuse that has dogged the Catholic church, but it still does not make it right, whether it is done by one priest or 1000!

Great comment, Janeinthiswrld, which is what this is all about. They have condoned it with their silence.

How do you know that, Ms. C? How do you know that? Who says we're quiet and in denial?

I can tell you who says things like what you have just said. People like you.

You don't have a clue as to what we say or do regarding this issue, so tell me, why do you make such statements? Why do you mislead as Luke does?

Show me where we are in denial, please. Show me where we have chosen to remain quiet. Do you attend our churches? Do you attend our meetings to discuss this subject with others? I haven't seen you with the rest of us as we talk and yell at the Bishops. So, where are you getting this information?

Please, share with the others how well you know, as fact, that I am in denial. If you are waiting for the media to report about something positive regarding Catholics, well, I know who shot President Kennedy.

Catholic parents are in a position to demand more of their church. If they don't, and they allow the church to continue with the status quo, then when it happens again, they are partially responsible.

In all fairness to this line of thinking then; anyone who doesn't condemn their religion of choice over the actions of a few is guilty because of their silence.

Is this same reasoning applied to ALL religions? Or only certain ones?

I think a better line of reasoning would be that People are in a position to demand better from society as a whole.

You don't have a clue as to what we say or do regarding this issue, so tell me, why do you make such statements? Why do you mislead as Luke does?

Show me where we are in denial, please. Show me where we have chosen to remain quiet. Do you attend our churches? Do you attend our meetings to discuss this subject with others? I haven't seen you with the rest of us as we talk and yell at the Bishops.

Then enlighten us, Soosalah, what do people like you do? What are you doing within your church to change or improve this situation. What influence do you have with the leaders of your church and the Vatican to prevent this from continuing? How is it that some priests are able to molest hundreds of children? What are the common people of the church doing to stop the predation of their children? How do we stop this?

I can tell you who says things like what you have just said. People like you.

Soosalah, the problem with being willing to throw negative labels on others is that your ignorance is shown in all its glory; the one you keep projecting on to other people to feel self-righteous. I was born into a staunch Catholic family with a long tradition of Catholicism; all my neighbourhood was Catholic and, naturally, I went to Catholic schools. I knew nothing else in my youth.

Above all, I was so influenced by the Catholic Church, I became a nun for some years. I was immersed in the religion and believed in nothing else. However, I left the Church because of its clear double standards and hypocrisy.

Yes, Soosalah, 'people like me' are challenging Catholic parents on their silence because the day they get up in unison and condemn the bad eggs and bad action inside the Church, to have the courage of their silent convictions, they will have the true Church they deserve. Until then, they will reap the harvest of continued hypocrisy and double standards which have not sat well with the outward professing of their beliefs and are rapidly losing credibility in the face of common sense.

Soosalah, the problem with being willing to throw negative labels on others is that your ignorance is shown in all its glory; the one you keep projecting on to other people to feel self-righteous.

Cyprah, I understand you think me, ignorant, and you have always thought me self-righteous, but what you think of me, personally, isn't relevant. Not to me, anyway.

Admittedly, your comments influence others, of course, as you have a solid reputation here on the Vine, but my reputation as Soosalah, as jsbach, as anyone, has never interfered in determining what I see as a wrong. While you address me as you do, why have you not addressed the author of this article? Why do you not address HIS self-righteous condemnation of people?

You were a nun and you quit, for the reasons you stated. That was your decision and one I cannot address, yet not everyone quits, not everyone gives up. If you think you are the only one who sees hypocrsiy in the Church, you should know you aren't alone. But, that has nothing to do with this article.

This article is cruel, and that is what I am against at this moment.

By the way, I enjoyed your confidence article. It was very good, I thought.

Susan

How many practicing Catholics have reported being sexually abused by the clergy?

Blue--don't ask Luke for any statistics to support his hatred. He hasn't got any. Condemning an entire religion in the manner in which Luke is doing here is also a sin but one that he does not see. Shame on you, Luke. Are you a member of any religion? Do you even believe in God? When was the last time you visited a Catholic Church? Have you ever even been in one? I think you should go. It might do your soul some good.

It's the height of arrogance to accuse a parent of child abuse based solely on the fact that they are Catholic.

In the political arena, if someone were to say that anyone who didn't vote for President Obama refused to do so simply because he is a black man and base that statement on the fact that some -few- people made their decision based on that criteria (which I totally don't condone, for the record) there would be such an outcry of "FOUL!" and rightly so.

Did you know that the vast majority of children are sexual abused by a family member? Even often a parent? Your a parent aren't you? hmmmmm Knowingly exposing your child to you puts him at risk for the potential of sexual abuse. How would you feel having your child taken away from you for a disgusting crime you never committed simply because other fathers have done it? I'm not trying to be mean here. I'm asking you to think about it.

This is a exactly what you are implying against Catholic parents....that -they- are abusers based solely upon their religious denomination. You are also assuming that the rank and file members of Catholic parishes all across this country are do not want to see the guilty parties see justice...also very very untrue.

Again, you are insinuating that there are no good and Godly men who serve as priests in the Catholic Church...that they are pedophiles one and all. You may not say that straight out but you imply it by your rhetoric. For example:

Luke Wright

You are basically saying all Catholics should give up being Catholic and never go to church again or else they condone and support this behavior.

I'm not "basically saying it", I'm saying it! Change denominations, stay Catholic and go to a protestant church if you are married to the Vatican, but PLEASE, don't expose your children to Catholic priests who are free to sexually abuse them at their whim becuase they know that they will just get transferred to another hunting ground if they are found out!

#3.6 - Thu Apr 1, 2010 4:08 PM EDT

Catholic people -want- this to be made right. They are pressing for the truth. What they don't want to be are vigilantes who condemn the innocent along with the guilty. And, Luke, there -are- innocent wonderful priests still within the Church who don't deserve to be judged as guilty for something they have not done.

Yes, the wheels are turning far too slowly. Yes, some terribly shocking things have come to light about how some proven abusive priests were handled rather than prosecuted. Very very few Catholics would deny that. I know I don't. But this isn't something that we can just wave a magic wand of and be able to instantly discern the innocent from the guilty. That takes time and investigation.

What I can say is that because of all that has happened recently priests now more than ever know they must be VERY careful to be above reproach. The ways things are handled as far as a priest being alone with children and such will be very very monitored now. The precautions taken now will almost be overkill just to make sure nothing like this happens again.

And something else I can promise you....the Catholic people will make their voices heard should it be proven that our Pope is involved. We have accusations now. Now we need to investigate them and come to a conclusion. That won't happen over night either.

But, at least in the United States, we simply can not throw our constitution out the window. Here a person...even a priest...is innocent until proven guilty. The wheels of justice turn slowly at times but the -do- turn.

Where the hell have you been? They do this on here all day every day to White people who didn't vote for Obama!

LOL, yeah I know but I was trying not to start a thread hijacking post as much as possible. I was trying to just keep it as supposition rather than start with the he said /she said political finger pointing crap which has nothing to do with this threads' topic. Not the best example, I admit. ;-)

an arbitrary distinction, I'm afraid.

I'm not sure about "condoned" or "encouraged", but I certainly do know that over the centuries they've subordinated just about every issue to the maintenance of their organizational structure. However, the child abuse issue should not become a political football in what I have come to call "Competitive Christianity"; a game that seems to surface every hundred years or so and fuels my generally dim view of organized religion. I've been saying for years that I'm glad that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven according to Christian thought. It means that Jesus doesn't have a grave to roll over in, which he'd probably do if he heard all of the constant bickering between his followers.

How many practicing Catholics have reported being sexually abused by the clergy?

Seems on another thread, the Church's new Hotline for abuse reports was just overloaded with Thousands of calls in the first day.

Seems on another thread, the Church's new Hotline for abuse reports was just overloaded with Thousands of calls in the first day.

I'm sure it was. The economy is bad. A lot of people are looking for a quick buck. I have to wonder just how many of those calls are legitimate.

More like blame the liars and thieves who weren't victims actually but are trying to get on the gravy train.

To believe that there weren't any of those calling that hotline is just silly.

Dang, sounds like you'd make a great PR person for the POPE! Sure, blame the victims!

Are the victims telling the truth? I'd make a great PR person for you, Luke if you were falsely accused of something or if a bunch of liars jumped on a bandwagon to take you and your family down.

Jdrew, while I might not agree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it.

That is what was so funny! I know Fellow, he was just being sarcastic. The guy is hilarious.

He didn't say anything dammit. He just said "."!

Yes he did. He was telling a joke about a Priest, a Rabbi and a Minister going fishing.

Luke Wright

Got something to add to the conversation Jdrew?

Hi Luke. I sometimes find articles that interest me but prefer just to read along. I did this on another thread(just putting in a period)and got pretty much the same reaction from other viners. Honestly it's just so new comments to the conversation will appear in the tracker and later I can go back and read them. I tried just clicking start tracking on the page but unless I actually type in something it doesn't track the article. It's not a good habit I suppose so I'm abandoning the practice. No problem I hope. ~peace

Jdrew,

If your tracker isn't tracking for you....[Why am I not surprised?]....just type in..."Interesting article, Luke." Or "Good article, Luke".

I did the "." once and it turned into a pornfest.

.just type in..."Interesting article, Luke." Or "Good article, Luke".

But it isn't interesting or good, it's a bit phobic and a lot of ignorance and intolerance.

Hey MJV! He just deleted another one where I'm talking to Perrie about my cat who's dead.

Yep....Luke is on a "Delete dkaz" roll.

Before I go........Hey Luke!............Play Wink

MJV, I don't think Luke likes us. Should we cry?

I've been deleted by better ... no crying here, just laughing at the hypocracy.

One priest claimed to have sexually abused one child every couple weeks for 25 years. Pretty high probability for those kids.

One priest claimed to have sexually abused one child every couple weeks for 25 years. Pretty high probability for those kids.

That is one out of 400,000 current Catholic Priests in the world ... you need to be a bit less obscure about your numbers ...

Is that 650 kids, one kid 650 times, 2 kids 325 times ... 10 kids 65 times ...

I'm not trying to be crass here, I'm trying to get people to think logically not emotionally.

I am thinking logically.

The problem is we're trying to qualify statistics here. As I said before, in some churches the children will have a 0% chance of being victimized, only because the priest in their church is not a predator. But if you have a child attending a church with a priest who was purposely moved by the church from one parish to another after having molested dozens, or hundreds, of children, then that child has a significantly higher chance of being victimized.

Does it matter if its 650 kids? Or 2 kids 325 times? Or 10 kids 65 times? What if its just 1 kid, 1 time. Only that kid is your kid? Logically, what would you do?

Does it matter if its 650 kids? Or 2 kids 325 times? Or 10 kids 65 times? What if its just 1 kid, 1 time. Only that kid is your kid?

Indeed, good question. Such a double standard. I find it incredible the attitude towards ordinary paedophile and priests. When it is just a paedophile the number doesn't seem to matter. When it is a priest, the excuses and statistical analysis comes out. Jeeez.

MJV, it is an 'emotional' issue because those unfortunate kids to be abused would have been emotionally scarred for life! Logic doesn't come anywhere into abuse.

Does it matter if its 650 kids? Or 2 kids 325 times? Or 10 kids 65 times? What if its just 1 kid, 1 time. Only that kid is your kid? Logically, what would you do?

Report it to the authorities (the civil authorities) and have him (hopefully) arrested. Not condemn hundreds of thousands of other perfectly normal people and millions of Catholics for the actions of one (or in this case 5%) of the priestly population.

But if you have a child attending a church with a priest who was purposely moved by the church from one parish to another after having molested dozens, or hundreds, of children, then that child has a significantly higher chance of being victimized.

Yes, but what does that have to do with the picture as a whole, again you are focusing on the 5% of the population in the priesthood of the Catholic church who have molested children while ignoring the fact that that percentage has the potential of being higher in the general population of the United States.

I did a bit of research and found that 10% of child molesters attack children they don't know. Which means 90% are from a known, trusted person.

How many of the 90% of those known and trusted individuals were their parish priest?

I can understand what you're saying MJV, but it seems that there are quite a few within the leadership of the church who not only know about these specific incidents of molestation but they do nothing to stop it, they actively and consciously cover it up, and then actually create a situation that allows it to continue. As a whole, if you don't know who specifically is involved, then do you just assume that none of them are involved? There were many known and trusted individuals within the church who did not victimize children, but they knew about those who did. In my opinion, those people are complicit with the actual abuse and are just as guilty. When you look at it that way, the number of people one can trust within the church gets smaller. I don't trust a molester, and I don't trust someone who covers for a molester.

How's that for the picture as a whole?

How's that for the picture as a whole?

Slanted, but like Luke, you are only seeing a small portion of the picture and don't seem willing to move from your position.

Read post 1.14 and tell me how you can logically (instead of emotionally) hold the position that you do.

Look at my numbers in which I state there is an (approximately) 0.00033% chance of any one Catholic priest (in the US) being a child molester and tell me you can logically hold your position. (that's 33/10,000ths by the way)

Maybe slanted. I'll concede that. But I could say you are slanted the other way.

I guess the difference is that you're looking at it in terms of numbers and probability and I'm looking at it in terms of human lives effected by the ugly things that happened within the church. Even if it only happens once, is covered up once, a priest is moved once, its still too many. You can play with probability all you want, but if you are a victim, it 100% happened. And if you are a parent of that victim, it is 100% devastating.

I don't think I'm looking at just a small portion of the picture. I think perhaps your view of it is so broad that you are missing the individual trees that make up the whole forest (so to speak).

So, practically speaking, what can be done to stop this type of behavior from happening in any church? How can we reduce the probability to 0?

So, practically speaking, what can be done to stop this type of behavior from happening in any church? How can we reduce the probability to 0?

It will never be reduced to 0, either in the church or in the rest of the world. Statistically speaking, there will always be the probability of a child molester in any walk of life, including the priesthood (or any other religious figure in any religion).

Just like fatal car accidents, and murders will never be reduced to 0, it is impossible when humans are entered into the equation. I realistically can see this, you however seem not to be able to understand it. It is the difference between reacting to an incident logically or emotionally.

You do what you can to treat every incident in the proper way (which the Catholic church had not been doing in the past), whether it be in the general public or within the priesthood (or any other religion).

When will they start treating every incident in the proper way? They are still blaming the victims. They liken the criticism of the church over sex abuse charges to anti semitism. Oh, yeah, it just keeps getting better and better.

Pope's Priest: Criticism like anti-Semitism

Jane--are all Germans to blame for the holocaust?

How do you trust a church when you can't trust the top guy in charge of the church?

How do you trust your government?

I do it with faith. As I said, it's all a "Good Ole' Boy's" club that's bringing everything good down.

Trust in your religion, not in the people running it.

How can you separate the two? Especially in Catholicism which essentially says the Pope is like God?

My faith has to be earned. I don't just give it away.

Especially in Catholicism which essentially says the Pope is like God?

No, they say the Pope speaks for God ... not that "the Pope is like God".

It's called speaking Ex Cathedra ...

In Catholic theology, the Latin phrase ex cathedra, literally meaning "from the chair", refers to a teaching by the pope that is considered to be made with the intention of invoking infallibility.
The "chair" referred to is not a literal chair, but refers metaphorically to the pope's position, or office, as the official teacher of Catholic doctrine

Ok, the Pope speaks for God. The Pope covers up for child molesters. What exactly is God saying?

Ok, the Pope speaks for God. The Pope covers up for child molesters. What exactly is God saying?

I'm not sure where you get your information, but the Pope rarely speaks "Ex Cathedra"

How can you separate the two? Especially in Catholicism which essentially says the Pope is like God?

Catholicism does not say the Pope is like God.

How can I separate the two? Easy. One is church, loaded with "the good ole' boys" and one is the government, loaded with "the good ole' boys".

Any time you have a group ran by one gender you're going to find some of the sickest people hidden on the membership roster.

The Priesthood

Boy Scouts of America

Nuns

Girl Scouts

Male sports

Female sports

Politicians

It's up to the head of these groups to boot out the ones who are bringing them down. Bringing them bad publicity. And as I said in my comment, if they choose to hide them for whatever reason, they need to be taken down too a replaced.

I can find a variety of sites that compare the Pope to God and give quotes from different Catholic representatives making that claim. There can be no doubt that many Catholics see him as such. The Pope is inseparable from the church. He is the church on earth. Talk circles around it all you want. It is what it is.

I can find a variety of sites that compare the Pope to God

I'm sure you can. I'll help you find them. I found sites where many Germans see Hitler as a Savior.

and give quotes from different Catholic representatives

Who are they representing? Not me. And I'm sure not any Catholics I know.

There can be no doubt that many Catholics see him as such.

I agree. Just like there can be no doubt that many Catholics believe a doctor who performs an abortion should be murdered. I believe they're referred to as fanatics. Ever hear of the word? They are in every religion known to man. Including yours.

The Pope is inseparable from the church. He is the church on earth.

In your opinion.

Talk circles around it all you want. It is what it is.

And it is what you want to believe it is.

By the way, if you think the Pope is inseparable from the church...I think you better do a bit of reading.

The following is a list of murdered pontiffs and the way in
which they are thought to has been removed:

John VIII (872-882): Poisoned and clubbed to death
Adrian III, St. (884-885): Rumored poisoned
Stephen VI (896-897): Strangled
Leo V (903): Murdered
John X (914-928): Suffocated under a pillow
Stephen VII (VIII) (928-931): Possibly murdered
Stephen VIII (IX) (939-942): Mutilated and died from injuries
John XII (955-964): Suffered a stroke while with a mistress
or murdered by an outraged husband
Benedict VI (973-974): Strangled by a priest
John XIV (983-984): Starved to death or poisoned
Gregory V (996-999): Rumored poisoned, probably malaria
Sergius IV (1009-1012): Possibly murdered
Clement II (1046-1047): Rumored poisoned
Damasus II (1048): Rumored murdered
Boniface VIII (1294-1303): Died from abuse received while a
captive of the French in Anagni

N.B. This list does not include the antipopes, who routinely
died by Violence or execution such as Boniface VII (974,
984-985), who was murdered by a mob and left under a statue
of Marcus Aurelius to be stabbeb by passersby.

I personally think the way John XII was killed. What a hoot!!

John XII (955-964): Suffered a stroke while with a mistress
or murdered by an outraged husband

dkaz, you like to talk in circles too. Except that you don't say much.

The question still hasn't been answered. You've all managed to talk around and around it without actually addressing it. How do you trust a church when you can't trust the top guy in charge of the church? He speaks for the church. He runs the church. He is God's representative on earth for the church. He is the church. He cannot be separated from the church without totally changing the church.

Its ironic, because a lot of the responses so far have been exactly the way the Catholic church addresses them....by not actually addressing them.

. Time to serve them with Justice. A few countries have banned or kicked out Scientology. Why not examine the possibilities with the Catholic Churches....

I'll bet that would make all the "free speech" activists here happy....The fondest dream of so many non Catholics...... for sooo long.

dkaz, you like to talk in circles too. Except that you don't say much.

Okay. I'll make my comments longer.

How do you trust a church when you can't trust the top guy in charge of the church?

Did the top guy do the molesting? I don't get your question. Are you talking about the Priest of the Parish or the Pope? You're throwing out an incomplete question.

He cannot be separated from the church without totally changing the church.

But then we would be Protestants, wouldn't we? Is that what you are? Is that what you want us all to become? Are we to become one under Jimmy Swaggart instead?

Jane--on what basis do you presume to understand anything about Catholics and their Pope?

I find it interesting to read all the comments by those defending the Catholic church who then go on to say that they don't practice the religion anymore.

I DO practice the religion--just not in the confines of a building.

I defend anyone's right to choose and practice their religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. My not being a devout Catholic has nothing to do with the recent sex abuse scandals. If I was any other religion, I'd be the same way.

That being said, I'm not a practicing Catholic at this time, due to all of the hypocrisy I see in the Church.

You said you were not a practicing Catholic. Can you be a practicing Catholic without going to church? Isn't there all the blessing and the confessing in order to be a practicing catholic?

I find it interesting to read all the comments by those defending the Catholic church who then go on to say that they don't practice the religion anymore.

Some practice no more, some practice no less. Some leave for various reasons and later in life return. Most return as they get older. That's how religion works.

Yes, I know dkaz. That doesn't really change or negate what I said. Mizimel defends the church, then goes on to say he doesn't practice the religion. He can practice it in private all he wants, I'm pretty sure the church doesn't think that's enough.

Does it surprise you that people are open minded whether they're Catholic or not? I defend the right for Blacks to vote and I'm not Black and I only vote if there's someone worth voting for.

Isn't there all the blessing and the confessing in order to be a practicing catholic?

Jane--why not attend mass perhaps convert and find out for yourself? The doors are open.

It's a hard decision between ones faith and knowingly supporting what is undeniably the largest organized group of pedophiles that the world has ever seen.

To take ones hard earned money every week and hand it over knowing full well that a portion is going to comfortably house, protect and maintain secrecy about the literally thousands of vile rapes and molestations - crimes that were known to be happening and supported within the church all the way to the top.

If you are giving your money to support this organization, you are sharing in the crimes as an accessory to their deeds.

Why is it okay with Catholics that Cardinal Law of Boston, a man that is criminally answerable to countless cases of his enabling pedophiles repeating their violent acts against children (and should probably be rotting in a deep dark American prison) be harbored from justice by the Vatican along with others?

Why aren't Catholics demanding for a top to bottom house-cleaning of the church and equally loudly demanding that all guilty priests be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, registered as sex offenders, etc.

Careful Judge. Pedophiles are not necessarily gay and gays are not necessarily pedophiles. Most pedophiles are heterosexual males.

I could say that its fairly obvious the supporters of the Catholic church have a bias that stems from more than simple belief in their religion.

Oh, I make no bones about the fact that I was raised to believe that the Catholic Church is a cult.

Groovy, we got that out of the way.

What Christianity is about is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

As someone who was raised Catholic, I can tell you with the utmost conviction that you have been woefully misinformed about Catholicism if you think this is not also the sole intent of the Catholic faith.

Catholics pray to "Mother Mary", she's dead and cannot hear their prayers.

A lot of the faithful of other denominations have a profound misunderstanding of the faithful's relationship with Mary. Yes, the correct terminology is that we pray to her - quite distinct from worship which is what many try to accuse us of - but which you did not. Thank you. "She's dead". Yes, she is dead. As Mary was a human being, created by God with an immortal soul, since she is now dead, is her soul not in heaven with God? How dead is she then? When you are at church, Luke, do you ask your brothers and sisters in faith to pray for you? If you don't, that's very unusual - it seems to be a pretty common practice for all the faithful to pray for each other. The Nicene Creed refers to the communion of saints. This relationship that we have with all the faithful, both living and dead, is what is referred to as the communion of saints. We, as Catholic faithful, ask Mary, who did indeed have a very special relationship with God, to offer prayers to on our behalf. Is that really so strange?

Jesus is alive man! To know Him is to know God The Father.

No Catholic would ever argue with you on that. That is the very point of all of Christianity.

Catholics believe that heaven is a "works based" concept.

I'm sure you have reasons for thinking that, but I've got to tell you - you are mistaken in your understanding regarding the Catholics view of "earning" heaven. If there were any way possible for heaven to be earned, Christ would never have become man and been sacrificed for our sins. Heaven - and even faith itself - is a grace, a gift; there is no possibility of earning heaven through good works. The good thief - a criminal - is the first human being we know of Christ having told us is in heaven.

I don't expect to change your views regarding Catholics - at least not through one computer conversation, but I am asking you, Luke, to try to consider that the image you have in your mind of the Catholic Church may not be accurate. Try to be just a little bit more open to seeing the good in the Church - just as you are open to seeing the good in little Luke. After all, if we all confess one Christ, are we not all brothers in that same Christ?

in my personal opinion the Church is run in a "cult-like" fashion.

The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own.

The Bible says that the only requirement to enter Heaven is a belief is Jesus Christ as The Son of God and a confession of sin.

Which never really made much sense. Basically, I can be a total dirtbag but if I believe in Jesus and repent before I die, then I'm ok. On the other hand, if I'm a good person and don't believe in Jesus, I'm condemed to Hell. Something seems to be lacking in the divine justice category.

Which never really made much sense. Basically, I can be a total dirtbag but if I believe in Jesus and repent before I die, then I'm ok. On the other hand, if I'm a good person and don't believe in Jesus, I'm condemed to Hell. Something seems to be lacking in the divine justice category.

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me either Gordy. I know many many people who are good decent people in the community, who have nothing but goodness in their hearts, who actually practice all the things that most religions are supposed to teach and support. But some are not Christian and some practice no religion at all. I simply cannot accept and believe that they would be condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering after having lived their life in such a positive way.

But I don't believe in hell, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Luke--so you're a man who believes in Jesus Christ...and this is the way you act? Would Christ be supportive you think of your blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church? What church do you attend that has so blatently misinformed you about mine? What I can tell you about my Church....we don't sit around in mass and condemn persons of other faiths. This is a lengthy thread and I'm not sure if it's been said but if so forgive me---your condemnation of Catholics reminds me of the kind of thinking that resulted in the holocaust. Shame on you.

Are Catholics Christian?

Here's some very interesting read for anyone who wants to be in the know.

By the way, I just learned that if it weren't for Catholics, there would be no Bible. The word "Bible" does't appear in the Bible. It was coined by Catholics. Cool, huh?

Neat fact!

You can get smarter here after all!

I am not condemning Christianity,

Luke--agreed...what you are doing though is condemning Catholics. You and I are brothers and sisters in Christ....and I have to tell you I'm appalled by this article. Words cannot describe how offensive it is to those of us who are Catholic. I don't suspect though you'll be issuing any apologies.

I doubt it as well..but if he replaces the word with Baptist, Jewish, etc...I wonder if he sees it with the same eyes.

The seeder..my question to you is you say you are Christian...well what particular type of Christianity?Baptist, Methodist?

I suggest that you apolgize to the thousands of victims that you callously called liars for coming forth to expose their molesters.

Luke---where have I ever called any victim a "liar"....please provide link to comment or else apologize for misrepresentation.

Luke the fact is we aren't calling victims liars, but a priest does deserve the benefit of trial considering that there is something called false memory syndrome...also, the fact that these accusations come decades later, even after the priest is dead brings to the credibilty...especially since most of the accusations came AFTER money came into the picture...there have been several false accusations in fact 1 in 8 are proven to be absolutely false. Yes, there is abuse, no not more often...less than 1% of priests have been accused...if only the same thing could be said for other Christian religions.

Shall we start with the Baptists that have abused their flock? Several of my junior high school friends were molested by a Baptist preacher in the confines of his office at our private school that I went to.

Well lisaed, I can tell you that as the father of a one year old boy, I cannot describe to you how appalled I am by the behavior of the Pope, the Vatican and the God only knows how many pedophile priests that they both helped to cover up for and transfer to knew hunting grounds.

Luke, make sure you don't let your baby grow up to be a cowboy.

lx,

The seeder..my question to you is you say you are Christian...well what particular type of Christianity?Baptist, Methodist?

Wanna bet if you get an answer to this or not?

dkaz---Luke apparently does not have the courage to expose to us from whence he has learned such intolerance. I have told him I'm Catholic. I wear publicly the shame that my Church feels with regard to the matter of abuse. Why he won't do same is indeed telling.

I go to a "Church Of God".

So a form of Pentecostal then.

From the Church of God website:

It was 1886, in a crude meeting house on the Tennessee-North Carolina border, where the Church of God traces its roots. There, a group of eight sincere Christians had a deep desire for a closer relationship and life with Christ. Realizing the futility of reforming their own churches, they established a new church whose objective would be to restore sound scriptural doctrines of the Bible, encourage deeper consecration and promote evangelism and Christian service.

If my son is gay I won't love him any less! Who's bigotry is showing now dkaz?

Pentecostal's have problems with gays, Luke.

Most churches in the Pentecostal Movement view homosexuality as a sin. They tend to oppose same-sex marriages, and they do not allow homosexual pastors. Some pentecostal churches also deny membership to homosexuals. They take the perspective that the homosexual can be delivered from their homosexuality.

As the largest Pentecostal denomination in the U.S., the Assemblies of God also adhere to the belief that homosexuality is a sin, and that it goes against scripture and the God's created order for human relationships. They believe that homosexuals will not inherent the Kingdom of God, but that homosexuals can be reconciled to God. AG churches encourage members to minister to homosexuals.

So don't try hiding your true feelings from God. He knows all and sees all.

By the way, are you going to delete this too? You've already deleted what....6 of my comments?

Can't take the heat, can you Luke. Or.....

Are you looking to add more to your earnings? Methinks there's a method to your madness.

dkaz---Luke apparently does not have the courage to expose to us from whence he has learned such intolerance. I have told him I'm Catholic. I wear publicly the shame that my Church feels with regard to the matter of abuse. Why he won't do same is indeed telling.

Above in 18.20 is your answer lisaed.....unless he deletes it too.

Luke, Church of God..ok...here goes

http://www.cultnews.com/?cat=33

Sexual abuse isn’t a crime exclusive to the Catholic Church. Based on reported cases, statistics reveal that one in every four girls and one in every six boys will be sexually abused before the age of eighteen. Thousands of children and adults suffer silently, never reporting the crime due to fear, shame and/or unfounded guilt.

In the last 10 years, there has been an average of 70 child abuse allegations against American churches every week Department of Health and Human Services

The Journal of Pastoral Care reported in a 1993 survey that 14 percent of Southern Baptist senior pastors have engaged in “sexual behavior inappropriate for a minister.” darkness2light.org

Men make up the largest majority of perpetrators of child sexual abuse for both boys and girls. These men usually play a role of caretaker in the child’s life…such as a pastor. essortment.com

http://cogic.net/cogiccms/default/tag/sexual-abuse/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Woman+accuses+pastor+of+sex+abuse%3B+Church+also+sued%3B+Minister+denies...-a0164856523

http://www.reportcogicabuse.com/

Report COGIC Abuse is a victims advocacy-oriented ministry. Our goal is to help members and former members of the Church of God in Christ (COGIC) break down the dark walls of silence and inaction surrounding leadership abuses.
http://www.fisheaters.com/clergysexabuse.html

Rev. Thomas Streitferdt, 59, a white Pastor in charge of the mostly black 700-member True Church of God in Harlem, was charged with rape and sodomy of two young sisters (ages 14 and 16) in his congregation. Law enforcement officials charge that Streitferdt told females worshippers that they could end up in hell if they refused his sexual advances, and raped at least one woman during premarital counseling.... Members were told that if they were not buried under church auspices at an additional fee in the church cemetery that "they would not go to heaven."
Rome] Daily Sentinel 5/28/88
Rev. Leon Dupree, 47, pastor of Lily of the Valley Church of God in Christ in Rochester, NY, is charged with first degree sexual assault and first degree burglary of a 26 year old woman. She said he was armed with a hammer and struck her with a screwdriver. Dupree was convicted of second degree manslaughter in a 1978 drunken driving fatality and served time in state prison.

Now what do you have to say? clean out your own closet then work on everyone else's.

As one Catholic to....I think....another, you're too Catholic.

And you're making up words.

catholicity.

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

And you're making up words.

cath·o·lic·i·ty (kth-ls-t)
n.
1. The condition or quality of being catholic; breadth or inclusiveness.
2. General application or acceptance; universality.
3. Catholicity Roman Catholicism.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

and:

Catholicity
n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) the beliefs, etc., of the Catholic Church

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Also:

Main Entry: cath·o·lic·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ˌka-thə-ˈli-sə-tē, ˌkath-ˈli-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cath·o·lic·i·ties
Date: 1704

1 capitalized : the character of being in conformity with a Catholic church
2 a : liberality of sentiments or views <catholicity of viewpoint — W. V. O'Connor> b : universality c : comprehensive range <catholicity of topics>

.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholicity

and:

cath·o·lic·i·ty   [kath-uh-lis-i-tee] Show IPA
–noun
1.
broad-mindedness or liberality, as of tastes, interests, or views.
2.
universality; general inclusiveness.
3.
(initial capital letter) the Roman Catholic Church, or its doctrines and usages.
Use catholicity in a Sentence
Origin:
1820–30; catholic + -ity

—Related forms
non·cath·o·lic·i·ty, noun
un·cath·o·lic·i·ty, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.

and again:

catho·lic·ity (kat̸h′ə lis′i tē)

noun
the quality or state of being catholic, as in taste, sympathy, or understanding; liberality, as of ideas
comprehensive quality; universality
Catholicism

Webster's New World College Dictionary Copyright © 2010 by Wiley Publishing, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio.
Used by arrangement with John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

and yet again:

(kath-uh-LIS-i-tee)

noun
1. Wide-ranging; universality.
2. Broad-mindedness; inclusiveness.

Etymology
From Latin catholicus, from Greek katholikos (general), from kata (according to, by) + holou (whole). Ultimately from Indo-European root sol- (whole) that brought us words such as solid, salute, save, salvo, and soldier
Usage
"[Broadcaster John Ebdon] notched up more than 1,000 broadcasts on topics that reflected the catholicity of his interests -- they included astronomy, religion and poetry." — Obituaries: John Ebdon; The Times (London, UK); Mar 24, 2005.

Have I made my point yet and supported it with enough evidence?

No idea what dictionary you were using, lol. ;)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

Sorry. I typed it in again and it didn't come up. This is what did....

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

1. catholicity.

So much for merriam-webster.

But you're still too Catholic regardless of the meaning of the word. lol :-)

Luke did not repost this article. It disappeared from the Vine and then reappeared yesterday. I can only assume it was removed because of people like you, and then reposted because of people like me.

mrsrachelm, I respect your opinion. If you don't like it and don't agree with it, then do not read it, and do not comment on it.

But don't you dare tell me that I can't read it and that I can't comment on it. I don't agree that its inflammatory at all. I think Luke has posed a very interesting question that needs to be addressed. I feel sorry for some here who are so upset and insecure that they would totally squash freedom of speech and freedom of thought. I don't need you to tell me what I can read or think. Go ahead and complain, but you will find there will be many of us who are countering your complaints.

In fact, I'm going to fire off an email to the NewsVine powers that be right now!

mrsrachelm, I respect your opinion. If you don't like it and don't agree with it, then do not read it, and do not comment on it.

But don't you dare tell me that I can't read it and that I can't comment on it. I don't agree that its inflammatory at all. I think Luke has posed a very interesting question that needs to be addressed. I feel sorry for some here who are so upset and insecure that they would totally squash freedom of speech and freedom of thought. I don't need you to tell me what I can read or think. Go ahead and complain, but you will find there will be many of us who are countering your complaints.

My God Jane, we agree on something. There's hope for us yet.

Did I say that you weren't free to express your opinion? Nope. What I -did- say was this:

Luke, the newsvine community already voted this article off of newsvine yet here it is again....in it's entirety. I will, of course, revote it off as inflammatory as I hope my fellow level headed viners will.

#1.19 - Fri Apr 2, 2010 11:37 PM EDT

I think it's fairly obvious that the seeder (and many of his supporters) has a very strong anti-Catholic bias that stems from more than just this particular subject. He (I assume it's a he based on the name) is entitled to feel whatever he wishes, of course.

I just find the whole "fan the flame" in these types of seeds (regardless of subject matter) to be without any real value. They, by their very natures, are not open to logical, calm, rational and FACTUAL based information. Rather, they serve only to use extremely broad terms, wide-ranging judgments and emotional hysteria to further an underlying agenda. That agenda in this particular case is the demonizing of the Catholic faith as a whole and it adherents on a personal level by claiming by insinuation that they are "bad" and "abusive" parents.

#16 - Thu Apr 1, 2010 7:07 PM EDT

I have reported this seed as being inflammatory. It was collapsed by the vine community but Luke reposted it anew in it's entirety. I have also emailed the moderators about this reposting of a formerly deleted forum thread.

I encourage any viners who feel like I do, that is seed is intentionally inflammatory by insinuating that Catholic parents are abusing their children simply by remaining Catholic and attending Catholic services, then please report this seed as well. There is no place for hate speech against parents simply based on their Catholicity.

Thank you.

#20 - Sat Apr 3, 2010 1:12 AM EDT

Now, where I say "There is no place for hate speech....." I was merely exercising my -own- freedom of speech as well....something you support, I might add....since you said:

But don't you dare tell me that I can't read it and that I can't comment on it.

Of course that is, unless that only applies to you and not to me.... I am exercising those same freedoms you espouse by reading and commenting on it with my -own- opinions. Freedom of speech cuts -both- ways, my friend. I am within my rights to protest as you are to counter my protests.

Thank you.

mrsrachelm,

If I may, the two moderators of Newsvine usually take a weekend break, which is always well-deserved, I think. So, that may, and I repeat, may, mean they will not address your concerns until Monday.

If I am to go by the introduction to the new Newsvine guides, article, they don't have the authority to delete or suspend an article, so like I said, you MAY have to wait until Monday. I have seen Tyler make an occasional appearance during his off-time, but that is always up to him, and I think it rare, to be honest.

Since birth, (lol) I have been down this road many times with those who hate Catholics, so you kind of have to go with the flow when dealing with hate in the hearts of others. This isn't the first anti-Catholic article on Newsvine, and it won't be the last, I assure you.

Whatever the decision, just remember you are not alone.

Susan

Thanks, Soos. I figured that after a week of stress they would take a break each weekend, LOL. And this weekend is a holiday (for some) so all the more likely.

I really appreciate your support. It can be a very unnerving experience feeling like the only only one standing up in the midst of a seemingly angry mob and speaking against them.

Soos, a friend request flying your way!

This isn't the first anti-Catholic article on Newsvine, and it won't be the last, I assure you.

And this is exactly why I try and keep it as light as possible and try to throw some goofiness into my comments in articles such as this because Catholics, in my opinion are either envied or hated. I see it in real life and I read it here on the Vine. If someone is going to come on and bash my religion, then God Bless them. As I said in my first comment, I wasn't taught hatred from my parents, the nuns who were my Catechism teachers or the Priests in the Parishes I belonged to.

I agree dkaz. Friend request coming your way as well. It's hard to keep things light on such hot topics so I can only imagine how many times you just roll your eyes and say "pass", LOL.

A lot! That's why you very rarely see me on religious or political articles. I tend to stay on the goofy side of the Vine. Some of these people........brrrr!! Got the request. Thank you.

VoteTotal Votes: 50

LoL.....Hurry all Anti Papists!.....Get your historic angst out on this "any answer" anti Catholic poll.

Youze crazy, gp..........[laughing]......and in a good way.

You guys be funny!

That's cuz we're Cat-licks, Perrie.

Hmmm...I'm guessing they don't have one.

The Devil?

but attack me and I'll fight back!

And yet you bash Catholics for doing the same thing on your article. Very hypocritical of you Luke.

Dat's right! You're allowed to defame all Catholics and their religion but if you're called on the carpet that's not cool, eh Luke? Learn to take what you dish out with knowledge to back you up instead of hatred.

Luke--I didn't call you KKK---I said this article reminds me of KKK teachings against the Catholic Church...you refuse to identify your church....and that does lead us to wonder why?

Just like my opinion is my right!

Yes Luke, you have the right to have an opinion, but that does not make your opinion right.

Watch what you say to Luke. He's "delete happy" today.

Never said it did.

Yes, you have, multiple times within this article and the resulting discussion posts.

The only things I deleted were off-topic ramblings...

No, the only thing you deleted were "off-topic" ramblings that weren't your own. If you were truly deleting "off-topic" ramblings, you would have deleted all of post #8, not just the one's from the people who were disagreeing with you.

I will delete anything I deem off-topic or derailing the conversation.

So you don't feel 8.2, 8.3, 8.4, 8.5 and 8.6 are off topic?

If you don't like the CoH take it up with the NV staff!

I don't have a problem with the CoH, I have a problem with the inconsistent use of the policy by you.

I am specifically accusing you of deleting the "off-topic" posts of the two people who most vehemently oppose what you are saying in this article while leaving the "off-topic" posts of others, including yourself.

Do I admit the posts you deleted were off-topic, Yes I do, and you are free to delete them, but by not deleting other off-topic posts on this article, you show your true self, someone who can't take the heat, but also isn't man enough to delete the actual posts that disagree with you.

"I" will delete anythinf that "I" deem off-topic or derailing the conversation.

Just making sure I know where you stand Luke.

Again...and for the last time...if you don't like the CoH, take it up with the NV staff...I couldn't really care less...

Reading comprehension Luke, reading comprehension.

Again, as I stated in 25.11, I don't have a problem with the CoH, just your interpretation of it.

I'm pretty sure I was very clear on that fact.

I noticed you didn't disagree with your bias against me and dkaz.

As I stated I couldn't care less...

Like your view of the truth ... or facts.

Damn all the squabbling. Lisa and MJV - you know Luke's not Catholic and you know that many protestant denominations are brought up to be biased against the Church. Can I ask you two to be a bit more patient in your objections with this article? I'm not by any means asking you not to defend the faith or the Church - by no means am I saying that. Just - please be a bit more facilitative in your dialogue...this is a difficult conversation and it demands as much patience as possible.

I'm far too busy at work these days to spend any time looking up any resources, but, Luke, if you have time, try googling cannon law to see the ways in which the authority of the Church works and who moves whom around within a diocese. Also, I would suggest that you read some documents of the Church if you want to learn anything about the spirit of Catholicism - google Encyclical letters and read the text of the letters themselves - not some commentary on them. When you get to know the Church a bit better, what critique you offer regarding the Church has a chance of being more accurate. As of now - you're view is far too biased to be anything near accurate. Later, Bro.